| Chat Log: David Brin Session Start (irc-m08.icq.aol.com:#authorchat): Wed Sep 25 21:04:55 2002 [21:04:54] *** Now talking in #authorchat. *** Topic of #authorchat: *** Set by ChanServ 86 minutes ago *** Users on #authorchat: Wonderer SabreRunner_ @Icon2002 @Uri_M *** End of /NAMES list. [21:04:55] *** davidbrin (Snak@1857F9FF.98FFE.70574806.IP) has joined channel #authorchat *** Mode for channel #authorchat is "+ntr " *** Channel #authorchat was created at Wed Sep 25 18:58:34 2002 [21:04:59] *** Join to #authorchat completed in 4 seconds. [21:05:04] *** Signoff: SabreRunner_ (Gone: Leaving) [21:05:05] <Uri_M> welcome back. [21:05:11] <Uri_M> were there any problems? [21:05:20] <Icon2002> Dr. Brin, welcome. [21:07:18] <davidbrin> hello? [21:07:26] <Uri_M> hello. [21:07:45] <davidbrin> At last! It actually works! Thanks Uri for all your help. [21:07:55] <Uri_M> :) [21:07:55] <davidbrin> And Didi and Irit for setting this up [21:07:58] <Uri_M> a pleasure. [21:08:07] <Uri_M> will deliver.. [21:08:08] <Icon2002> Irit asked me to say 'hi'. She is busy elsewhere at the Con right now. [21:08:21] <davidbrin> It's very nice of you all to invite me to attend as an e-guest. [21:08:28] <davidbrin> I very much hope to come visit beautiful Israel someday, perhaps with my children helping to interpret, because their Hebrew is already much better than mine. [21:08:40] <Icon2002> Your children speak Hebrew? [21:08:41] <davidbrin> How has the con gone? [21:08:48] <Icon2002> The con has gone well. [21:09:18] <davidbrin> They are ages 5,8,10 The older two are learning some Hebrew. Their cousin speaks fluently. [21:09:33] <davidbrin> How many people have attended the con? [21:09:50] <davidbrin> Where is it being held? [21:10:08] <Icon2002> All of you are always welcome here. There were a couple of thousand people in and out over the last three days. [21:10:36] <davidbrin> That many? WHere? [21:10:40] <Icon2002> The con is being held in the center of Tel Aviv. It's a combination of the Sci-fi/fantasy fans, the trekkies and the Israeli Gamers [21:11:06] <Uri_M> how have you been doing? [21:11:21] <davidbrin> It is wonderful to see SF doing well in Israel. The world divides into the SF part and non-SF part... [21:11:28] <davidbrin> In the SF part I get free meals! [21:11:35] <Uri_M> :) [21:11:38] <davidbrin> And I meet great people. [21:11:58] <Icon2002> Unfortunately, for the present, the sci-fi world in Israel isn't as big as it is in the US, so we need to combine forces to get that kind of turnout. [21:12:10] <davidbrin> I believe SF reflects a belief in the future. A golden age lies less in the past... [21:12:19] <Icon2002> But it gets bigger and bigger each year. [21:12:26] <davidbrin> a dark belief filled with pessimism... [21:12:37] <davidbrin> ... than in a future that we will make. [21:12:47] <Icon2002> And it is authors as yourself who are dreaming up the paths we will take to get there. [21:12:56] <davidbrin> I should warn you that this chat program I am using threatens to quit automatically after 30 minutes, so I might be dropped out and have to restart and rejoin. [21:13:13] <davidbrin> Speaking of chat... [21:13:14] <Uri_M> darn. [21:13:16] <davidbrin> ...I just filed a software patent for a vastly better approach to online realtime text communications, a realm most adults deride as "chat" because of a clunky teletype-based interface, almost unchanged from when I first tried it at Caltech in 1971! The only major reform attempted so far has been silly "avatars". Fed up, I devised a new approach -- and a tiny startup to implement it. (Countercyclical? Sure!) Let me know if you'd like to se [21:13:25] <Uri_M> I was certain it'll last more.. [21:13:38] <Icon2002> If it does, we will all wait patiently for your return. We await the Messiah, I guess we can wait for you as well. [21:13:48] <Uri_M> if you change the date for a month backwards it should fix it i hope.. [21:14:03] <davidbrin> So, the big question... how have my recent Hebrew translations been doing? Were they good translations? [21:14:48] <davidbrin> People don't often confuse me with the big M. In the sci fi worldview, we expect a lot of little Messiahs.... [21:15:19] <Icon2002> Only two of the first three Uplift books (the second and third books) have been translated. Do you think that Israelis might lose out by not reading the full set [21:16:03] <davidbrin> Well, many Israelis read their sf in English. WHat fraction? DOes it help a lot to have a Hebrew version? [21:16:14] <Icon2002> Other than from a literary point of view, I meant. Do you think they might not get the full picture without reading Sundiver as well? [21:16:39] <Uri_M> Your question has raised a debate around the table(about the translations). [21:16:58] <davidbrin> Each novel stands on its own. SUndiver is a murder mystery. Not necessary for enjoying the rest. Were the translations good? [21:17:02] *** Uri_M is now known as Didi [21:17:21] <davidbrin> Hi Didi [21:17:23] <Didi> I liked the decision not to translate Sundiver. Then again. I made it. [21:17:28] *** Didi is now known as Uri_M [21:17:40] <Uri_M> he's above my head.. [21:17:50] <Icon2002> May I ask what you are currently working on? [21:17:51] <davidbrin> Ah, yes. well, we can be patient... ;-) [21:18:15] <davidbrin> The title of my new novel -- the most original thing I've done in years -- is Kiln People. It's has had rave reviews. Take the notion of golems -- temporary clay people (not clones!) -- and now imagine a near future when everybody can make them. Using a "home copier" you ditto your memories -- perhaps even a genuine imprint of your soul -- and off goes the duplicate to run your errands, attend your classes, or do all the drudgery work. Then , [21:18:25] *** Uri_M is now known as Didi [21:18:29] <Icon2002> Kiln people is about to come out in Hebrew. [21:19:03] <davidbrin> Great! There are Jewish images throughout. [21:19:24] <Didi> Yup. From my new employers at Modan. Startide was one of my first choices in Modan, and I was happy to be able to choose a great new Brin book at my new job [21:19:31] *** Didi is now known as Uri_M [21:19:32] <davidbrin> Another project should interest you... a big graphic novel, hardcover, from DC. Due in 2003. Related to the Holocaust. [21:19:34] <Icon2002> We are all looking forward to it. Most Israelis prefer to read in Hebrew, of course, so we always look forward to seeing as much as we can in Hebrew. [21:19:42] <davidbrin> The Life Eaters covers a much, much darker theme, building dramatically from a novella that came in second for a Hugo some years ago. [21:19:42] <davidbrin> This bold work asks: what might the Nazis have really been up to? Perhaps a hidden agenda that nobody knows about even to this day? [21:19:54] <Uri_M> Cool! [21:20:06] <Icon2002> Which illustrators are working on this project? [21:20:08] <Uri_M> that was didi.. :) [21:21:01] <davidbrin> It's the darkest thing I ever wrote. It began when I wondered if the WAY they murdered might be significant. Systematic batches. As if trying to accomplish something more than just death. One word. Necromancy. [21:21:09] <Icon2002> Going back to translations, there is a constant stream of feedback between readers and the publishing houses here to get more (and better) translations made. [21:21:10] <davidbrin> Awful concept. Yet vivid. [21:21:49] <Uri_M> Kipod: do you have a cat? [21:21:51] <davidbrin> I have many wuthor friends in France who seek help getting translated into English. I am afraid that direction is very hard in SF [21:21:51] <Icon2002> And a little bit terrifying as well. Can we have any spoilers as to what they were up to, or should we hold our breath like the rest of the world? [21:22:14] <Uri_M> Didi: re: the grapic novel. That is SO Tim Powers [21:22:17] <davidbrin> Yes I have a mini-panther... or so it seems. [21:22:29] <Uri_M> Didi: At that's a good thing [21:22:35] *** Uri_M is now known as Kipod [21:22:49] *** Wonderer is now known as SabreRunner [21:22:51] <Kipod> I must appologize for being framed. I did not ask such a thing. [21:22:52] <Icon2002> Are we talking descriptively here, or was it an experiment in genetic engineering? [21:22:58] *** Kipod is now known as Uri_M [21:23:02] <Uri_M> or so he claims.. [21:23:03] <davidbrin> The necromancy failed in this world, fortunately. In the parallel world of my story, they succeeded in bringing to life the Norse gods. [21:23:37] <Icon2002> The word has begun to spread - when will we be able to see it coming out? [21:24:06] *** Uri_M is now known as tzur_l [21:24:12] <davidbrin> It should be available in spring 2003 from DC Comics. Some art will appear in advance at (Link: http://www.davidbrin.com/)http://www.davidbrin.com / [21:24:27] <davidbrin> Also in the works, a "Heinleinian" book in which aliens kidnap 3,000 kids from a Californian high school... [21:25:03] <davidbrin> Tell the gamers: soon to be revised and released: the legendary Uplift game, GURPS Uplift! In preparation for the long-awaited publication of the new, updated edition, author-designer Stefan Jones has created a special page of interest to gamers and Uplift fans alike. [21:25:17] <davidbrin> Again, news will appear at (Link: http://www.davidbrin.com/)http://www.davidbrin.com / [21:25:35] <tzur_l> hallo, dr. brin. fascinated from your books. one of the most original and fresh ideas i ever red. [21:25:48] <davidbrin> So far I have not been kicked off. How many people are there? [21:25:59] <davidbrin> Thanks tzur [21:26:07] <Icon2002> Several, most of them leaning on my back (OW!) [21:26:32] <SabreRunner> Does it hurt more than yesterday? [21:26:47] <Icon2002> Are there any Asimov expansions in the works? [21:27:00] <davidbrin> Well, you should know that many people over here have our hearts with you during the present crisis, which we hope you all will handle with courage, subtlety and skill. [21:27:26] <Icon2002> Thank you for the heartfelt wishes. [21:27:28] <tzur_l> q about the uplift: ther is a feeling that the story "have no end", as if it had been stopped in the middel. lot's of open q's. should we see answers? [21:27:48] <davidbrin> I have finished with my portion of the Asimov universe. My 'answer' to Asimov, at the end of Foundation's Triumph, seems to have been pretty decisive. [21:28:33] <davidbrin> tzur have you seen the SECOND Uplift trilogy? Ending with Heaven's Reach? That one answers maybe 1/2 of the questions. [21:28:37] <tzur_l> (i must remark that the only first two were translated...and i read only heb - translated sf) [21:29:04] <Icon2002> So, will there be more Uplift? [21:29:36] <davidbrin> The second trilogy is Brightness Reef, Infinity's Shore and Heaven's Reach. I sympathize with the translation problem! It must be hard. But now you have a champion in Didi! [21:30:02] <davidbrin> I love the Uplift Universe, and I'm glad you liked the books too. But I can't do just one thing. I do hope to get back to Tom & Creideiki, but first some other projects. There ARE a couple of gifts for Uplift fans along the way. See the story "Temptation" downloadable at (Link: http://www.davidbrin.com/)http://www.davidbrin.com / [21:30:36] <Icon2002> Didi asked that I pass on that he has left the publishing house with the rights to your Uplift books. [21:31:05] <davidbrin> Yes, so he can do my other books! ;-) [21:31:10] <Icon2002> You can only do one thing at a time? Aren't all sci-fi authors capable of time travel? [21:31:18] <Icon2002> Didi: yup [21:31:34] <davidbrin> You should look at some bright new authors like Wil McCarthy. [21:31:50] <tzur_l> another q: ther is no religious variabels, or almost no religious aspects, in the uplift. is it logical that creatuars would lake all thos feelings? (unless u have developed the chimp's dance) [21:32:01] <davidbrin> Actually, KILN PEOPLE is about the dream of being able to do more than 2 things at once! [21:32:14] <Icon2002> I read your comparison of Star Trek and Star Wars. You left one major (in my eyes) question unanswered - which of the two worlds would you personally prefer to live in? [21:32:24] <davidbrin> Instead of immortality or more life in SERIES, it is about getting more life in PARALLEL. [21:32:50] <davidbrin> Can there be any doubt? There are many fun sci fi universes... [21:33:06] <davidbrin> ...fun to read about or watch in a film... [21:33:11] <davidbrin> ... but very few you would actually want to live in... [21:33:26] <davidbrin> But I would be proud if our children made a civilization like Star Trek. [21:33:39] <davidbrin> It is a good future filled with people who are better than we are! [21:33:47] <davidbrin> That is what any good parent should want. [21:33:54] <Icon2002> Do you have a chance to do much reading? Other authors who have chatted with us in the past have complained of a lack of time to do any reading, due to their deadlines. [21:34:07] <tzur_l> (uri chears for sttrk) [21:34:11] <Icon2002> Uri asked to pass on that he agrees wholeheartedly [21:34:37] <Icon2002> If you haven't figured it out by now, Uri (and Tzur and Didi) are all using the computer right next to mine. [21:35:07] <Icon2002> A computer which just crashed. Oops. Sorry. [21:35:21] <davidbrin> I never read published novels. I only read novels that are sent to me in manuscript, by publishers who say "This is an exciting new book! Say something about it!" That way I get to read something fresh by a new author... and I get to help the author too. I just don't have time to read anything already published.! [21:35:29] <Icon2002> And they have found that kicking them doesn't help. [21:35:45] <davidbrin> But it always works in movies! [21:36:01] *** Signoff: tzur_l (Connection reset by peer) [21:36:10] <SabreRunner> Too bad, this is science fiction. Things have to make sense. [21:36:22] <davidbrin> Uh oh, we are losing the audience! [21:36:23] <Icon2002> That is one of the main differences between movies and real life. [21:36:35] <davidbrin> I have an essay at (Link: http://www.davidbrin.com/)http://www.davidbrin.com / [21:36:42] <davidbrin> about many other differences [21:36:54] *** Uri_M (~Vash@13FF75FD.2901D92C.20008B93.IP) has joined channel #authorchat [21:37:04] <Icon2002> Tzur has asked for answers to his questions. Should I resend them, or could you please scroll back and read them? [21:37:05] <Uri_M> sorry bout that. [21:37:22] <Uri_M> darn pc [21:37:36] <davidbrin> I have been especially critical of fantasy stories that yearn for ancient days when humanity was dominated by kings and wizards and priests. [21:37:49] <Icon2002> No, it's Windows. Shall we get into an anti-Microsoft rant? Luckily, Dr. Brin is using a Mac. [21:38:19] <davidbrin> That is one of my complaints about Star Wars. I also feel Lord of the Rings is morally questionable (though I like it better than SW) [21:38:33] <davidbrin> I just met Steve Wozniak, inventor of the Mac [21:38:59] <Uri_M> did you get a holograph? :) [21:39:17] <davidbrin> May I ask a question? How serious is the underground movement in Israel to move the Dome of the Rock and rebuild the Temple? [21:39:26] <Uri_M> Not the only inventor if i know the facts accurately. [21:39:57] <davidbrin> I always suspected that Meir Kahane (a Cohen) did not want to be Prime Minister, he wanted to be the first High Priest in 200 years. [21:40:32] <davidbrin> I portray this having happened in the novel HEART OF THE COMET [21:40:39] <Icon2002> The movement was about six or seven people (adn Tzur asked to add their goat to the list) who are all known to the police, and are rarely taken seriously by anyone other than by themesleves. [21:41:10] <davidbrin> That is a relief. Though they make interesting material for a story or two. [21:41:29] <Icon2002> Rabbi Kahane's movement was made illegal by the Israeli courts. [21:41:35] <davidbrin> I doubt very much that the goat wants a return to Temple sacrifices. I sure don't! [21:41:52] <Uri_M> *all roars laughing.. [21:42:23] <davidbrin> So, any further questions? [21:42:37] <davidbrin> I wish Sharon were asking me for advice. ;-) [21:42:44] <Uri_M> the uy next to me is writing thm.. [21:42:47] <Uri_M> guy [21:42:49] <Uri_M> them [21:43:04] <Icon2002> Although, I do find there is one issue that Rabbi Kahane did do well in - he was the person who brought the issue of Soviet Jewry to the headlines, despite his way of working. [21:43:49] <davidbrin> Actually, my father Herb Brin was the 1st american or Jewish journalist to go see the Moscow activists around 1962. He was [21:44:10] <Icon2002> there are no religious variables, or almost no religious aspects, in the uplift series. is it logical that creatuars would like all those feelings? (unless you have developed the chimp's dance) [21:44:12] <davidbrin> flown by Ben Gurion to Jerusalem right after and his report began the long process... [21:44:54] <davidbrin> Actually, I am accused of being very religious because sometimes, in trouble, my characters pray. Personallu... [21:45:16] <davidbrin> I find that simply realistic. In struggle or war, there are very few atheists. [21:45:37] <davidbrin> In STARTIDE the hero says Kaddish... [21:45:46] <Icon2002> None of your alien species have religions. Do you think that only humans have this need? [21:46:14] <davidbrin> In KILN PEOPLE there are some spiritual aspects that very religious people may not like... [21:46:43] <davidbrin> ...since the territory of the 'soul' is considered another area for technological exploration and commercialization! [21:47:22] <davidbrin> In Heaven's Reach there are several aliens who are very religious. One of them has adopted Earth religious views. [21:48:16] <davidbrin> Actually, many of the aliens in my universe await the return of the Progenitors. And the issue of "transcendence" is important to them. [21:48:51] <Icon2002> By 'religious' we don't mean the Jewish/Christian meaning of the word, but rather similar to Herbert's work in Dune or in Dosadi? [21:49:21] <davidbrin> Herbert was a great explorer. [21:49:41] <davidbrin> I feel that there are many issues, some of them 'religious ' [21:50:08] <Icon2002> Herbert was fresh and original. [21:50:26] <davidbrin> The cruz is this: is there a 'plan"...? Or is there a field of possibilities that humans and humanity have been placed upon, to explore and discover at will? [21:51:06] <davidbrin> It would seem that rabinical Judaism has moved more toward the latter point of view, though there are orthodox who disagree. [21:51:25] <davidbrin> Certainly the number of Jewish scientists implies an inclination toward the explorer theory. [21:51:31] <Icon2002> Only humans? Are there different fields for aliens, or is this journey for all together? What do you feel an alien religion would be like? [21:52:30] <davidbrin> Of course not only humans. But since we know no aliens, our very speculation about them is part of the adventure! [21:53:07] <Icon2002> Speaking as an Orthodox Jew, I want to clarify that it is only the very-ultra-Orthodox who don't accept scientific views. Most Orthodox Jews manage to synthisize religion with contemporary science. [21:53:31] <davidbrin> WHat concerns me most is anything that limits our agility of mind. If we are her as part of a rigid plan, we do not need agile minds. But if it is a problem to be solved, then anything that limits our agility is evil. [21:54:14] <davidbrin> Incon... you are quite right. Which is why I said Rabbinical Judaism... and not Temple judaism. [21:55:04] <Icon2002> I don't see a difference between the two, Rabbinical as opposed to Temple. [21:55:15] <davidbrin> Many american Christians are pro-Israel... but it is because they see a rigid plan unfolding... [21:56:06] <davidbrin> ... and the restoration of Israel is a stage before it all ends! What a strange reason to get their support! Especially since most Jews see any plan as vague and general and open-ended. [21:56:10] <Icon2002> And most Israelis (especially most of those of us here at the con) are fearful of the Israeli government's rigidity as well. [21:57:08] <davidbrin> Rabbinical judaism happened BECAUSE the Temple fell. It is egalitarian. Cohenim have only a few privileges. Any bright boy (and now girl?) can aspire to be Tzaddik. [21:57:32] <davidbrin> All human beings tend to fall into the same traps when it comes to viewing their enemies.. One is a moral trap and the other is a trap of failed self-interest. [21:57:37] <davidbrin> The moral trap is one that we all know. It has been preached to us for ages by great sages. It is the sin of paying heed only to our own needs while ignoring the needs of others. [21:57:48] <davidbrin> The second trap is in some ways much worse. It is the trap of letting pride warp our perceptions so we do not see our opponents, but only a straw carricature of the enemy. An image that is more evil and stupid than reality, because that image helps us to feel good about ourselves. All humans do this. We assume the adversary is BOTH vile and incompetent. It feels good, but it can be a terrible mistake. [21:58:32] <Icon2002> I have to go, so I would like to thank you for giving us so much of your time. While the 'official' chat is over, there are people here who would like to go on chatting with you, if that is okay with you. [21:59:08] <davidbrin> Thanks for your hospitality. I wish you and the convention joy and many greater events. [21:59:09] *** Icon2002 is now known as tzur [21:59:27] <SabreRunner> With a person as deep as David Brin, I don't see why we can't go on until he's hungry.:) [21:59:27] <Uri_M> I hope you intend to stay a little longer.. [21:59:30] <tzur> thank u. [21:59:38] <davidbrin> I hope to visit someday. [22:00:10] <davidbrin> May I offer one thing that I think has not been said about the conflict? [22:00:33] <tzur> we would be more then happy. Roman polansky should be here next week... [22:01:08] <tzur> can we offer hospetality and tours in Icon 2003? [22:01:16] <davidbrin> I cannot comete with him! [22:01:32] <Uri_M> I would like to hear your thought about the conflict.. [22:01:49] <davidbrin> MAybe after my children reach 13. Then they can help! [22:02:05] <tzur> anythink about the conflict. my gedree is ME history.... [22:02:31] <davidbrin> We all know that many Arabs speak peace in English and violence in Arabic. [22:02:42] <davidbrin> They imagine that it might someday be possible to eliminate Israel. My question to them is this "suppose someday you succeed? If you do, you will face the vengeance of 5 million radicalized jews, including a large fraction of the world's best physical and biological scientists. Do you really want to face such a terror threat toward all of your cities and populations? The goal that you claim to hold dear is not one that will pragmatically [22:03:50] <Uri_M> oh, and another trap ppl fall into here in Israel. they view the enemy as hopeless and have mercy on him. they petronize upon the palestinians. and that view can never lead to peace. [22:03:52] <davidbrin> Of course, this assumes sophisticated mental processes. But you will never GET the enemy using such processes unless you try to engage them at that level. [22:04:13] <SabreRunner> Wow, I never thought of it this way. You know, this could make a good story.:) [22:04:45] <davidbrin> It is important not to perceive others as less in order to make one's self feel more. [22:04:49] <Uri_M> you can see the Islam spread throughout europe and USA as well. maybe they hope that they can stop it with political power. [22:04:55] <davidbrin> This is not only immoral, it is impractical. [22:04:58] <Uri_M> (the vengence) [22:04:58] <davidbrin> For example... [22:05:24] <davidbrin> It may be justifiable to call the enemy short-sighted (as I said above) and violent. [22:05:33] <tzur> it is most alikly that we would be "elimenated". we do have the power to protect ourselves. the radical islam, as the muslem brothers or Hamas, have a concept that includs the "great arab world", as in the glory days of islam... same chnce. [22:05:42] <davidbrin> But does it make sense to call him COWARDLY? That is simply untrue. [22:06:03] <davidbrin> Yet it is implied when one enters into a cycle of 'punishment". [22:06:49] <davidbrin> Punishment assumes that the enemy will be deterred by feeling pain. But a courageous person (even if he is wrong) will not be deterred by pain, he will instead feel only a wish to punish you. [22:07:29] <Uri_M> And so you need to make that this person won't have the option to punish you.. [22:08:04] <davidbrin> Tzur... there are more than enough brainy jews in the daspora to avenge you. May we never see it tested... [22:08:40] <davidbrin> Uri... I agree with you. And yet, that statement assumes they are stupid. CAn you see that? Always ask yourself this... [22:08:56] <Uri_M> I don't assume they are stupid. [22:08:59] <tzur> i do not underastemate, or hate, or dislike, arabs. i have lived , worked or had been with arabs at least three years - not to mention 3 academy years of islam. i respect some of them, and dislike some of them: i do not "hate" arab terrorists - just have no mercy for them...about population, i do not agree with all that is dune here, but some of it is jusefeid [22:09:20] <Uri_M> I assume we have greater military power, and with no other option(and there is no other option as for now) we should use it. [22:09:28] <SabreRunner> I saw a show that took the Japannese Kamikaze going against the Americans and compared them to the Islamic bombers going against us. Could the same solution work for us? I don't know. [22:09:45] <davidbrin> What would I do if I were in his situation? If you were an angry Palestinian, I am sure you would find a way to strike. Do not assume stupidity! Even though you are smarter than they are, do not assume that you will always bee THAT much smarter. [22:10:52] *** Signoff: Uri_M (Connection reset by peer) [22:11:24] <davidbrin> Please, I am not talking about Hating arabs. My arab neighbors all admit that Israelis have acted better toward the palestinians than the Arabs would toward Jews. My questions are pragmatic. What new thoughts should you be thinking, in order to stay agile? [22:11:39] <tzur> the anger circel never stops. we can not accept a situation when we give the palestenians all they want, yet lousing another innocent 20 victoms in the hart of jerusalem. [22:12:05] <davidbrin> I agree! And yet, the cysle is one that MUST be broken... [22:12:19] <davidbrin> for the reason that you cannot afford to lose even once. [22:13:11] *** Uri_M (~Vash@13FF75FD.2901D92C.20008B93.IP) has joined channel #authorchat [22:13:16] <Uri_M> sorry about that. [22:13:29] <SabreRunner> The PC doesn't like you.:) [22:13:35] <davidbrin> What I am suggesting is to do the pragmatic thing of trying to imagine you are the enemy. FEEL him and imagine you are him. That will let you picture him as courageous (true!) and clever (I hope not!) and better prepare you... [22:13:38] <tzur> it's hard, not to say impossibal. in best case, i estemat ther will be a limited orrangment, with side groups as hamas doing ther best to blow it up (both means...) maybe in 25 years... [22:13:54] <davidbrin> to either 1. fight him or 2. find moments when you can reach out to him. [22:14:57] <davidbrin> Well, I should stop lecturing. You are there and I am not. [22:15:04] <SabreRunner> I think it's always a good idea, when coming into a conflict, to think of your enemy as as smart as you or even smarter. And from the latest bombings I've heard, they're definitely getting smarter. [22:15:11] <davidbrin> Please know that we pray for you and support you. [22:15:25] <tzur> sorry to say, i fought them when i had to...it's not "black or white". what can u say to a palastinian mother who lost here sun? blood have the same colour both sids [22:15:26] <Uri_M> are you describing the suicide bombers as courageous? [22:16:20] <davidbrin> Yes, courage means that 'punishment' will not deter. It will instead motivate a will to punish back. That is the useful definition of courage her. [22:16:24] <Uri_M> lecture all you want, it is very intresting. [22:16:41] <SabreRunner> They might as well be. I mean, if you think of it otherwise, they have to be stupid to be doing this. [22:17:05] <davidbrin> I am not talking 'courage' in the admirable sense, but in a strictly pragmatic sense. Can the enemy be punished into stopping the actions you don't like? This now seems unlikely. [22:17:21] <Uri_M> I see no courage in commiting suicide(not necessarily because of ideals) for killing innocent civillians. [22:17:45] <Uri_M> it's not courage. [22:17:55] <davidbrin> You are again ignoring my definition. You are using 'courage' in the sense of being something admirable! [22:18:01] <Uri_M> it's the feeling of hopelessness. [22:18:04] <davidbrin> I mean it in a very basic sense. [22:18:11] <tzur> they r smart. we should stop them, at least try to. for evry event happends, we stop 3. yet, without an arrangment, ther can be no end for this. arafat is in a bad posizition, might be only a stick in weals. a canton concept is optional...and 2 generations to build up trust. [22:18:43] <davidbrin> A brave person reacts to punishment one way and a cowardly person reacts to it in another way. No matter how despicable their actions, these people are showing courage. It is vital that you admit it. [22:19:06] <Uri_M> Many of them do not. [22:19:38] <davidbrin> All human beings tend to fall into the same traps when it comes to viewing their enemies. [22:19:49] <davidbrin> At least the arabs must admit that you are brave and smart. [22:19:50] <tzur> palestinan education system is full of jews haterd and anti israeli. i hear ther television brodcasts in arabic - well, use to till we got the antenna off - pure hate. lots to change. [22:19:50] <Uri_M> not all suicide bombers do it because of idealism or revenge. many of them do it to help support their famillies(the suicide bombers famillies get paid for it.. ) [22:20:20] <davidbrin> STILL they do not get it. They act as if punishing you will weaken your resolve, even though all of the evidence of 50 years shows that it will not! [22:20:31] <davidbrin> Do you see how obstinate human nature is? [22:21:43] <Uri_M> A palestinian country that would be in the so called "occupied territories" posses a great threat to us. [22:21:54] <davidbrin> The Arab propaganda machine is purely evil. It is funded by our 'friends' in Saudi Arabia. The stupidity of our US government is total. Riyadh financed the 9/11 strikes on New York. They are the enemy, not Iraq and CERTAINLY not Iran. [22:22:13] <tzur> they estimate we r a week, decdant scoyaty. we happend to proofe otherwise. but even if u think as an arab, put yourselves in his shous, as i did lot's of tims - there is no "obuse" way out. [22:22:25] <Uri_M> Iraq is an enemy. [22:22:42] <davidbrin> Uri, let me pose another unconventional thought to you. From the Palestinian point of view, who should be their role models? [22:23:04] <davidbrin> Consider, they are the best educated of all Arabs. The most commercially active. [22:23:18] <Uri_M> I don't see where *can* they find rolemodels. [22:23:26] <davidbrin> Consider that all of their rich cousins let them down, left them in camps and use them as political tools. [22:23:27] <tzur> that is whay i have asked about religion, and was so fassnated from herbert: the concepts....then i thought, "well, aliens give a great place for ideas in this term " [22:23:39] <davidbrin> They want a modern democratic state of their own. [22:24:03] <Uri_M> if they want it, they have to fight for it. [22:24:04] <SabreRunner> I don't think they'll ever get it with Arafat [22:24:06] <Uri_M> and not fight us. [22:24:17] <davidbrin> You still don't get it? The ONLY Middle Eastern people who are bothe LIKE them and who accomplished what they want to achieve are... [22:24:21] <davidbrin> ... Israelis. [22:24:38] <Uri_M> you think they can ever look at us as rolemodels? [22:24:59] <tzur> sprry, have to go...love to go on in email - tzurlis@012.net.il, or via Irit. it was an hounor, and i really hope to see u here! [22:25:04] <davidbrin> You are everything they want to be. They are jealous and deep inside deeply admiring of you! And it is the admiration of a little brother who sees no hope of love with the one he admires... [22:25:20] <davidbrin> so it becomes hate. The deep hate that only brothers can share. [22:25:48] <SabreRunner> If it could only end like brothers, with a friendly scuffle and the parents breaking up. [22:26:10] *** tzur is now known as shlomi [22:26:16] <davidbrin> Uri... I think YOU have to see yourselves as role models to the Palestinians. YOU have to see that this is their only hope. To turn away from the Saudis who betrayed them and look to you instead. [22:26:29] <Uri_M> if they want democracy, the have to fight for it. fight Hamas. Islamic Jihad. Fight the palestinian authority. not us. [22:26:34] <shlomi> hi my name is shlomi [22:26:41] <davidbrin> You will not convince them of this at first. But it's still true. You are their only hope and someday you may convince them of it. [22:27:05] <Uri_M> not when their books teaching them there is no Israel. [22:27:28] <shlomi> wat are the chances that hostile aliens will attack earth in the next 100 year [22:28:01] *** Mode change "+o Uri_M" for channel #authorchat by shlomi [22:28:15] <davidbrin> I agree that winning the peace is their job. But it may start with [22:28:48] <davidbrin> YOU being mentally agile. NOT naive! Protect yourselves! But also consider what I have said here. [22:28:59] <davidbrin> Because my guess is they want one thing from you... [22:29:13] <Uri_M> our land. [22:29:14] <davidbrin> It is something they want more than for you to die. More than Jerusalem [22:29:21] <davidbrin> More than freedom [22:29:27] <davidbrin> They want your respect. [22:29:37] <davidbrin> You are the only people whose respect they need. [22:29:50] <davidbrin> They want it desperately. [22:30:02] <Uri_M> That is something one politician said here in Israel. [22:30:21] <Uri_M> if we want peace we have to look them at the same level. [22:30:29] <davidbrin> It is just a guess on my part. But when I talk to westernized arabs it is the one thing they mention. [22:30:49] <Uri_M> not with petronizing, and definitely not with pleeding for mercy. [22:30:59] <davidbrin> Perhaps not the same level. But acknowledge virtues when they show them! Even the courage. [22:31:27] <Uri_M> there is no courage in it. not in any way. suicide bombing is plain cowardness. [22:32:05] <davidbrin> No, you must be strong. Never naive. Strong enough to say, "You are smart and brave, but you are acting stupidly! Try a few other things (here are some suggestions) and maybe we can talk as equals. [22:32:37] <davidbrin> Sorry Uri. If you say that, it proves you do not understand my point. It makes you feel good to call it cowardics. [22:32:43] <davidbrin> It is EVIL! It is wrong... [22:33:26] <davidbrin> ... but it is a sign that they have a core of something strong. A strength that YOU would show, if Israel had its back against the sea. [22:33:36] <Uri_M> I still fail to understand how can you call people who die to kill civillians, babies..women..old men, people with courage.. [22:34:18] <davidbrin> Because you feel a need to throw every bad term in the dictionary at them! They ARE bad. They are stupid. They are evil... [22:34:31] <shlomi> suicide is a way to run from the world it is the ulitmate cowardness [22:34:51] <davidbrin> But cowardliness is not one of the bad words you can use in this case. If you do, you are not showing agility. [22:34:52] <Uri_M> i didn't say stupid. [22:35:02] <Uri_M> but the terrorists are evil. [22:35:40] <Uri_M> I'm talking about those who send the suicide bombers to our cities. [22:35:57] <Uri_M> there is no other word that describes so well their intentions. pure evil. [22:36:02] <davidbrin> Well I say stupid. Suicide bombs will not make Israel change. Their strategy is stupid. But imagine yourself with only one way to strike at Israel's enemies. You or I would climb into a plane and use it as a bomb. [22:36:44] <davidbrin> ALl I ask is that you step back and use your terms carefully. [22:36:49] <Uri_M> If we would have only this one way, there won't be any Israel. [22:37:12] <shlomi> as for suicide as a tool for a goal, it needs free chouise to be brave, they do it after brain washing [22:37:13] <davidbrin> It is the sort of last resort that none of us hope ever to see. [22:37:21] <davidbrin> And now I am afraid that I must go. [22:37:24] <davidbrin> Again.. [22:37:30] <davidbrin> thanks for putting up with me... [22:37:36] <SabreRunner> Can you wait just a second? [22:37:48] <davidbrin> I know that you are there and I am not. You see more than I do. [22:37:54] <Uri_M> i may use it as a bomb, but would I crash it on a market? no! I would crash it on a military base. [22:38:15] <Uri_M> thank you for coming. [22:38:34] <Uri_M> if you wish we can continue through mail(you have my mail I think.) [22:38:52] <davidbrin> Shlomi you make a good point... and yet, what did I say about dismissing the enemy in order to feel good? TRY HARD not to do that. TRy to assume the enemy is smarter than you think. Only then can you outsmart him [22:39:44] <SabreRunner> Mr. Brin: Read this article ( (Link: http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/dawkins_22_1.html)http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/dawkins_22_1.html ). I think it is quite enlightning. [22:40:19] <shlomi> i know they will still do the same thing, i'm not dismissing their action but thier motives [22:40:33] <davidbrin> Uri... that is TRUE. I respect the Al Qaeda men who attacked the Pentagon.... a little bit. They are still in hell. But in a different part of hell than those who attacked the World Trade Center. [22:40:55] <Uri_M> I have no respect for them. [22:41:19] <Uri_M> because I assume that the choice of who goes to which target was random. [22:41:26] <davidbrin> You just said you would choose a military target! The pentagon is a military target! [22:41:31] <Uri_M> not a decision of each kidnapper. [22:41:44] <davidbrin> Aha, I see. Well, yes I agree. [22:42:21] <davidbrin> But now at least you are looking at the details. It is theoretically possible for an enemy to choose a method you would respect. That is progress. [22:43:07] <davidbrin> And now I must go. Again, you have our love and good wishes. Keep agile minds. [22:43:14] <davidbrin> And keep in touch. [22:43:27] <shlomi> bye now [22:43:27] <SabreRunner> Good bye. [22:43:27] <Uri_M> I'll mail you when I get home tomorrow. [22:43:33] <Uri_M> thank you again. [22:43:43] <davidbrin> Shalom [22:43:46] <Uri_M> :) [22:43:51] <Uri_M> cya [22:43:52] <SabreRunner> Salam. [22:44:01] *** Signoff: davidbrin (Gone: Snak 4.8.5 IRC For Mac - (Link: http://www.snak.com)http://www.snak.com) [22:44:26] <Uri_M> sabre don't go for a sec. [22:44:33] *** Signoff: shlomi (Gone:) [22:44:41] <SabreRunner> Don't worry, The Memory Remains.:) [22:44:56] <Uri_M> mail me plz, as text the full version of the chat(I want it unedited) [22:45:00] <Uri_M> to [22:45:08] <Uri_M> ramrosh@012.net.il [22:45:31] <Uri_M> would be most appreciated. [22:45:48] <SabreRunner> As soon as I log off, it's on its way. [22:45:58] <Uri_M> thank you very much. [22:46:16] <Uri_M> see ya in the forum then(fighting for Mac!) [22:46:26] <SabreRunner> Right on, right on!! [22:46:37] <Uri_M> :) [22:46:41] <Uri_M> bbye. [22:46:44] <SabreRunner> Bye. Session Close (#authorchat): Wed Sep 25 22:46:49 2002 |